BOLDER & WISER with Peter Wang and Michelle Kraemer

Philip Wang: Michelin Stars, Accidental Calling, Leadership vs. Authority, The Infinite Mindset

• Peter Wang

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In our first IRL episode of the 'Bolder and Wiser' podcast, we sat down with award-winning chef and culinary operations leader Philip Wang in his kitchen in San Francisco. With an impressive career spanning Michelin-starred restaurants across the U.S. and high-profile roles at Airbnb and Meta, Philip shares his journey from struggling with academics to excelling in the culinary and business world. 

A few nuggets of wisdom:

  1. Not judging yourself by what you hear other people talking about: mindset shift from “utterly terrified” to  “I could do this”
  2. The difference between leadership and authority: leadership can come from anywhere in an organization 
  3. The importance of trust among peers to building sustainable peak performance 
  4. Creating an environment as a leader where team members have the freedom to fail—mistakes are going to happen and how you respond to a mistake is what matters most
  5. The journey and the means by which you achieve results, more than the dish served or outcomes themselves, are at the heart of a true leader’s legacy

He discusses his transformative experiences, the importance of relationships, and the lessons he's learned about leadership, mentorship, and the true meaning of success.

Join us for an authentic conversation that delves deep into the life and philosophy of a chef who values the impact he makes on people over the dishes he creates.


🔗 ENGAGE WITH MICHELLE KRAEMER

Interested in Coaching? Reach out to schedule consultation: https://michellekraemercoaching.com/

Follow on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mlkraemer/


🔗 FOLLOW PETER WANG

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/yuchunwang/


🔗 FOLLOW PHILIP WANG

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/philip-wang-472ba42a/


📚 REFERENCES

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⌚️ TIMESTAMPS

0:00 How I want to be remembered

Philip Wang:

I'm not really interested in how people remember what I've made, or the dish or the signature item that might've been on a menu. I I want to be remembered for the way people felt. The way I've maybe helped somebody come along in their career certainly if I've helped someone in personal life. For me, those relationships are probably the most important thing at this point.

Peter Wang:

This is our first episode of In-Person recording.

Michelle Kraemer:

Welcome everyone, and welcome Philip. We excited to be here from your kitchen.

Philip Wang:

Yes.

Michelle Kraemer:

So thrilled to have you as our first guest. On our rebranded podcast,

Peter Wang:

What is it called?

Michelle Kraemer:

Bolder and wiser.

Peter Wang:

Bolder and Wiser.

Philip Wang:

Love it.

Peter Wang:

You have a long career in the culinary practice. You've worked for some of the most prestigious restaurants in the country, including, Jardinière in San Francisco, Blackbird in Chicago, and restaurant Daniel in Manhattan. You've owned your own restaurants too, in Napa Valley, in Hawaii, and you've been awarded six Michelin Stars, and James Beard Award nomination. In 2014, you served as Airbnb's culinary director. In 2018, you joined Facebook as the regional culinary operations manager overseeing their culinary practice and all of Meta's office in the Bay Area. You also fly airplanes.

Philip Wang:

I do,

Peter Wang:

We have a lot of talk about today.

Philip Wang:

Great. Thank you. It's a pleasure.

Michelle Kraemer:

Phillip. It's so humbling to hear your background, even though I've heard it before and I've also heard all the wonderful things about you personally. You've been on what you self-describe as a learner's journey. Can you tell us a little bit about what you've learned in the last four or so years?

Philip Wang:

For me, going from restaurants where it takes over your whole life, going into the tech side of things and going into corporate catering then hitting the pandemic when as someone who works in an operation, the operations literally shut down overnight. It's been a lot of finding my own way through those things as not only the places I've worked are finding their ways through, but everyone around us has been finding their ways through. For myself, I've been lucky enough that during that time I've met and married a woman named Jean who is the love of my life.

Michelle Kraemer:

And that's how we know each other.

Philip Wang:

how we know each other.

Michelle Kraemer:

We met through Jean, who has been my friend for years and a business school classmate, and that's how I heard all the wonderful things about you personally having the total pleasure of being at your wedding.

Philip Wang:

Yeah. And first of all, what an event, it was great. She brought back kind of my zest for life, right? And Opened me up to possibilities that I didn't really know existed. During the pandemic, we built a house together, right? Literally the two of us built a house. We needed a project when my operations were down, and she came up with this idea to buy a small piece of land. And I went and learned carpentry and plumbing code and all these things that led to building a house, selling it and going through that whole learning process. I've realized that for myself, really it's about the journey. And I think it's something I didn't, understand fully when I was in kitchens. It's the process that I love, right? It's peeling the onion, it's dicing the carrot. it's not the flash of flame at the end, that when the pan flips it is about all the things that go into it. I don't wanna fall asleep at this point in my life yet.

Michelle Kraemer:

Let's go back to the beginning. Tell us a little bit about how your family has influenced who you are as a chef and a leader.

Philip Wang:

I grew in Indiana. Right of Chicago. My parents were both immigrants. My father came from China. My mother came from Poland.

Michelle Kraemer:

Definitely an odd mix in the seventies. But they had both left their countries to escape Communism, and so they had that kind of mutual understanding of the world, my father was a physician. My mother was a chemist, so they were also both in the sciences. My sister is a doctor, my brother is a geophysicist. So it was a family scientists that were obsessed with food. Growing up the conversation breakfast was what's for lunch? And the conversation at is what's for dinner? And dinner okay, what are we eating tomorrow? I have to ask. Did you have a favorite, go-to meal as a family or as an individual in your family?

Philip Wang:

I, yeah, I did sure. My mom. On the Polish side, learn to make Chinese dumplings. Did You hand make them. we, yeah. All hand made. She would make the dough, she'd make the filling, and then we would, all, my brother and I would play with the dough and fruit ruin it. it. Oh, that's so fun. mom and dad then just fill the dumplings and might seem odd, but, Polish pierogis are exactly the same thing. Just with different filling. It was absolutely a family affair. In fact, that's one of my greatest memories. And always ask my mom, to cook that if we come home.

Peter Wang:

That's nice. I remember that as a child. I grew up in Taiwan. I remember the lining out on the countertop. And then putting in. Little buns too. We had to, we made the little buns that way too. Yeah. I remember the

Philip Wang:

of dumplings on the dinner. Yeah. That's cool. then they'd freeze some and we'd eat. too Too many probably. Yeah. But food is how my family connected. Some, yeah. Every family has their own way of doing it Yeah.

Michelle Kraemer:

My family is also food. It's just n Oh, really? Gnocchi. Making gnocchi.

Philip Wang:

See, that's close to my heart.

Michelle Kraemer:

Oh, Oh, are one of my favorite. We'll have to make gnocchi

Philip Wang:

sometime. Yeah. The polish side of me loves anything with potatoes. Yeah, it's funny. Jean's family, their connection is logistics, right? So they'll talk about, how are we getting to the airport and, talk about the bus route and all these things. And for me it's funny to hear that, but for really, if you insert food into that same conversation, That's how we connected. Went to college thinking I'd eventually go to medical school. Growing up the questions were not, what do you want to be when you grow up? It was, okay, what's your specialty gonna be after medical school? That's what we were asked as kid. And when I got to college. It was eye-opening for me to realize that you know what, that's not a given and it's probably not something I really want to do.

Peter Wang:

How did you discover that?

Philip Wang:

It was honestly a lot of struggle, growing up in Indiana, we had traveled a lot growing up. My parents were very into us seeing the world. But we also grew up very sheltered, right? It was the Midwest in the seventies, very wonder years type upbringing. And so when I got to Tufts, we're in Boston and the world was in front of me with really no one kind of watching over your shoulder. I was focused on everything except school, And it caught up with me, growing up high school was. I'm not gonna say it was easy, I didn't honestly put much work in and the grades came, And when I got to college, I thought it would be the same and it wasn't. Now, all of a sudden the bar is raised, the people around you are very similar to what you were in high school, and now all of a sudden, it's not as easy to stand out. And at the same time I took a couple classes in anthropology, which I loved, which were the biological right? Human evolution, things like that. I really enjoyed it, I dove into it, declared it as my major, and all of a sudden I realized, whoa, there's no more of these evolution classes. Now I gotta take all these classes in the cultural side, sociology, things that really I didn't enjoy. And so when I realized that. I was halfway through my degree. I didn't wanna start again, so I pushed through, but it took its toll. I was pretty unhappy with it. My parents, to their credit, knew I was struggling. They suggested I take a semester off when my junior year all my friends were going abroad to study. As a lot of people do. I actually went and took a couple cooking classes. The cooking classes were in Hartford, Connecticut. So I would go in the morning, I'd drive to Hartford from Boston, Take classes, for cooking classes in the morning, drive take two classes in the evening at Tufts, and do that every day for the week. And it was probably four or five hours of driving total in the middle of my day. But starting with the cooking is when I realized that learning doesn't necessarily mean book study. Learning for me, being hands-on with something, getting to feel the products you're using and, holding a knife and seeing the flame on the stove. I'm a much more kind of tactile and practical, skills kind of person. And then I go back in the evening to Tufts and with anthropology, not only did I not wanted book study, but I was studying how to study. From there I made it through to the surprise of many graduated. So I have my degree, but after college, I'm like, what am I gonna do? Need a job? So my brother just on a whim suggested, oh go be a cook. And and probably to his surprise, I did, to my parents', surprise, I did. It was a bit of whiplash for them to hear, okay, you're going to college to study eventually medicine, and now all of a sudden you're coming out a cook.

Michelle Kraemer:

And this is in Boston? In Boston.

Philip Wang:

Yeah.

Michelle Kraemer:

What was their reaction?

Philip Wang:

I'll give them credit. I was terrified. A lot of the stereotypes of, the strong Asian father and the expectations and all of that were there. I thought that they would be very unhappy and. I'm sure, my mother tells me now some of the conversations they had then, but

Michelle Kraemer:

between the two of them.

Philip Wang:

the two of them. It comes down to just fear of the unknown and just not understanding where I'm gonna be. Yeah. I'm giving up, these quote unquote, professional type jobs, what am I gonna do with my life kind of conversations and they were stressed out, and to their credit, again, they didn't push that on me. They accepted it, they supported me. And I don't know if surprised is the right word, but it was eye-opening that they could have a different reaction than I thought they might.

Peter Wang:

I can relate to that as well. Asian parents who have very explicit expectations. I think my own observation is that it's a reflection of the fear. They want to minimize the fear. Because they do know one path works in life. Yeah. And we veer off the path Into the unknown. That is not excitement, pioneering work. That is into potential risks. And a lot of the anger is a reflection of, representation of fear.

Michelle Kraemer:

What a powerful lesson in leadership though, from your parents of walking into that unknown and holding back their own sense of. The what ifs to like really let you flourish just as a parent. Yeah. It's I feel that, wisdom coming from your parents.

Philip Wang:

Yeah, it was, It was I didn't understand it I didn't have the perspective. When I look back on it, I'm extremely grateful, for that. And knowing where they came from where so much of their life was necessity and doing what they had to do just to survive, to come to this country and provide for their families and give them a better life and, an education and all of these things and to not feel like it was being squandered was a gift I didn't realize they were giving at the time.

Michelle Kraemer:

So you have this gift.

Philip Wang:

so I have and then what? After I graduated, I went and found someone who was in the industry who was cooking, and I found a guy in northern Indiana owned a restaurant called The Strongbow Inn. They did Thanksgiving dinner, 365 days of the year. That was what they did as a restaurant. They That's wild. was a Turkey farm in northern Indiana with a restaurant that did that, right? And half the menu was all Turkey. Half the menu was fried chicken, and, very basic, middle America type cooking. But he had graduated the Culinary Institute of America. Two of the people that worked for him had also graduated from there. So I'm like, okay, if I'm gonna do this, I want to go learn fast, get my foot in the door somewhere and let's get this moving.'cause some people have already been in the industry for years and I worked for him for free for the summer. He wrote me a recommendation and I got into the Culinary Institute of America. Went there and studied did the first half of the program. Learned basic knife skills and all French techniques, things like that. And in in the middle of the program, you go and do an internship somewhere. I wrote letters to probably 50 chefs and received one response. Wow. Wow. See,

Michelle Kraemer:

See, this is what I love because this is what's beyond the highlight reel. We started out with your impressive background and most people who probably interact with you or know you just in passing would only know that. Or have found you because they are interested in culinary operations. But thank you so much for sharing that. Because that is the reality behind so much of what goes on. So one out of 50,

Philip Wang:

one out of 50. And at the it was disheartening, right? But I also applied to the 50 best restaurants in the US right? Yeah. Which probably got 50 letters just like mine. There's no internet at that point, right? So letters were still a thing. But what I know now that I didn't realize then, a lesson I've learned is, you might take it as rejection, but it doesn't mean it's rejection. It's probably more to do with the circumstances that the people that receive that letter are in. We don't know where they are, who they're looking for, what they need and you might just catch them at the right moment. And quite frankly, I'm probably believe that I caught the one person that saw my letter at the one place that replied at the right moment when they needed someone. So they invited me to come and work, for free which is a common theme.

Peter Wang:

Does this still happen today? Is that still the general practice?

Philip Wang:

It doesn't happen as much. But in restaurants when I was coming up, that was a given at that time, especially at the top places, there weren't as many restaurants as there are now. And so if you wanted to learn, and this was way before food tv, there was no food magazines, there was Julia Child and there was The Frugal Gourmet. That was it. No one Knew about cooking. And so the top restaurants had 10 resumes for every one job they had. So you did whatever you could to get in the door, and then you are now qualified to be the lowest person on the totem pole I went and worked for six months for free, and it was a struggle, I worked three jobs at that point: the main one, and then two others on the side, catering and just random things just to make some money for rent. My parents were able to help me a little bit but after six months I'm looking at going back to school and trying to see, do I wanna go back? Maybe I can find another job somewhere that will pay me. And Traci Des Jardins, who was the chef at Rubicon where I was interning had over the course of the six months, taken a liking to me and put me under her wing. Offered me a full-time job and I jumped at it. And that was the start. Is that rare? I don't know, to be honest with you. I don't know someone that I have taken under my wing in the same way Traci did for me. I'm guessing that's probably something that is somewhat rare throughout the humanity.

Michelle Kraemer:

Corporate world is very similar in in terms of it's special when you have someone who's willing to bring you along. Yeah, for sure.

Philip Wang:

and she personally trained me on all the stations in the kitchen and would bring me to the farmer's market and walk me through everything. And it was like getting a master's degree in cooking at that point. she's was first first of all terrifying but, but was, had become my hero and a mentor and now a friend, right? She was at the wedding after 30 years, right? That's the journey to get to. the starting line. And that whole thing is just, getting your first step.

Peter Wang:

At which point did you realize this is going to be my career, I will pursue versus this something I want to do for now and let me explore continuing. I think some of us build careers that are accidental.

Philip Wang:

I would absolutely call it accident. I think in college I struggled so much with the the academic side of things, and the theoretical side of learning that once once I got in a kitchen, it just clicked. It just made sense. I knew how to hold things and, move things around and, follow recipes and it just really worked with the way my brain is wired. It I knew instantly I'm just gonna do this and see where it goes. Now looking back, if I went to carpenter's trade school, it probably would've been the same thing yeah. Or if I learned to work on engines, it probably would've been the same thing. I I just happened to go into a kitchen and found my calling. Yeah.

Michelle Kraemer:

And there was no Meta food program or Airbnb food program that you could aspire to at the time. When you think about your career journey what has been your North Star for navigating decisions in terms along the way?

Philip Wang:

That's one that is probably not changed all that much, with. With anthropology in at college, I got a taste of it and then jumped in. Didn't really think it through very much. The danger there is, you're taking a wrong step or a step that's not going to move you in the direction you may want to eventually go. With my career it's been similar, right? The next thing presents itself and I just go, I just found it. The journey has been pretty organic that way. I didn't really have a North star, per se. I always talked about owning a restaurant one day. That was the dream that everyone in the kitchen had. It was what we thought of as like the ultimate goal. You can. explore your own ideas and put the food you want to cook and, have the service and the whole experience that you want to give. But really it was, okay, I've learned this from this person. What do I want to learn next? I'm gonna go find whoever's the best at that thing and go learn there. it was more shortsighted in many ways.'cause it was just what's next? But Yeah. for me it turns out that it was really building the foundations and strengthening the weak points. And so it worked out for me that it just happened that way.

Peter Wang:

You mentioned about owning a restaurant. Did you know how many phases were there between the first job? And then I'm gonna say, I'm gonna open my own restaurant.

Philip Wang:

The first job was Rubicon in San Francisco, And that came from my internship. My internship, I was lost. I got yelled at because I chopped parsely wrong on the first day. I remember it like it was yesterday.

Michelle Kraemer:

I'm pretty sure I only chop parsley wrong,

Philip Wang:

It's the joke that it's, it is probably the least skilled task in any kitchen, right? It's just, and I what what

Michelle Kraemer:

are you saying? You know

Philip Wang:

what I'm saying is that I thought I walked into failure immediately and was terrified, especially because the people around me two other students went to Rubicon for their internship too. So I was, I had two of my classmates next to me and they're talking about, about, Oh, do you put salt in your stock when you're making stock to pull the protein out of the bones? And these conversations I would never even think of. And I was I looked at myself, I'm like, I don't know anything about stocks and so I just put my head down and went to it, right? I made a mistake chopping parsley on day one, but I did it better on day two. right? I just methodically, slowly went through the process and slowly realized that, what that conversation they were having about putting salt in stock as a complete novice. I thought it was some, world changing insight. But the more I went through it, the more I realized that, you know what, that, that means nothing. They're trying to impress people by what they're saying. So it was all show and no substance, It was interesting to know at that point you know what don't judge yourself by what you hear other people doing. And that was a realization for me in that moment that really pushed me forward, knowing that at that point, This is something I could really do. And owning a place like Rubicon was not out of the question, So it came early for me when I had that realization. And hearing that and flipping the script from being utterly terrified, to seeing behind the curtain,

Peter Wang:

I could do this. Yeah. Yeah. This is possible.

Michelle Kraemer:

It's

Philip Wang:

such a

Michelle Kraemer:

great story of overcoming imposter syndrome. Oh, absolutely. Realizing actually these people don't know what they're talking about. That they sound impressive, but maybe if I just keep going. I can learn. Things that they might not know.

Philip Wang:

There's nothing that you can't learn by putting your head down and doing it, studying it, whatever it may be, and getting discouraged because someone else knows more than you. There's always gonna be that someone that knows more than you, for the most part. And, I look at it more as a challenge, at that point.

Michelle Kraemer:

I have a question about that because I, it does feel to me like you need to be in the environment where you're given the space to To learn and come along. And some of these top kitchens I wouldn't think would be necessarily, by default, the culture of giving people that space. What do you think was there that set you up for success and being able to put your head down on that journey?

Philip Wang:

A restaurant, by its very nature, the economics of it, just there isn't time to handhold anyone through the process, right? You're thrown into the fire no pun intended to sink or swim. And you have to just figure out how to do things, and when I was a cook, if you couldn't do it, in a timeframe that worked for the restaurant, you'd have pretty difficult conversation with the chef and the next time you were out. And and so I think just the way restaurants run, you have autonomy over what you are given your space. And to me that was very liberating because I advanced pretty quickly. Once I had that aha moment and I was able to really jump in and, push myself to learn, how do you make better potato puree? How do you make better? How do you see our scallop better? How do you make a better salad? How do you make a better vinegarette? Like All these And because they didn't have time to look over your shoulder, you just did it right? And if the chef was happy with it, or the diners happy with or the whoever, Great. No worries. news is good news. And especially in an environment like, like these kitchens the chefs for sure are. It's almost like a cult of personality in many they person, yeah. They're the face they're the ones on the magazine covers of of that, but. the people around you are the best in the world they're doing, you're in a three star Michelin restaurant, that person standing right there next to you can accurately claim that they are one of the best in the world at what they do. And being surrounded by those people probably did more to influence me and my drive and my work ethic and my skills than the chef ever did. Because they were interviewed tv, they were shoots, they running the business. They weren't down in the kitchen chopping the parsley with us. That kind of accountability of your peers and the ability to look someone and say, that's not good enough. Let's do this over. As a peer, right?

Michelle Kraemer:

So you would help each other get better. That's really insightful because yeah. You're gonna hold that kind of standard. For peers, it sounds like what you got out of it was helping each other to raise the bar. Consistently. I think the people you surround yourself with are gonna have a big impact on who you are, who you become, the work you do, and surrounding yourself with, I went into these thinking, okay, I'm gonna go learn from that chef and, try to emulate what they're cooking. I didn't even realize that, oh, the other people want the same thing and they're gonna be there pushing as hard as I am. And, so it's something again that I didn't realize, and because of what I wanted to do. I almost backed into surrounding myself with good people. I I wasn't intentional on my part. I'm that smart,

Peter Wang:

but I think you picked a great place to start. Almost like a it feels like almost that's your college degree. By being a Rubicon. Yeah. And you

Michelle Kraemer:

I'm

Peter Wang:

actually contrasting to the business world. Where this peer-to-peer feedback, I would say it's not as frequent

Michelle Kraemer:

I was just gonna ask a follow up question along those lines, which is how do you think trust was built across? Because it seems to me like if you're going to meet the standard of multiple Michelin stars and be held accountable for your seared scallop need to have a level of trust across your peers. That sometimes I think to your point is hard to fabricate in other environments so I'm wondering what we can learn from you,

Philip Wang:

the kitchen's an interesting environment because you have multiple hard deadlines every day. Dinner starts at five 30. You can't put off cranking the scallops till tomorrow. Mm-hmm. You're under the time crunch, so everybody starts with the perspective that this has to get done right. We're gonna find a way to get it done. And that, I guess in the old days we called the can-do attitude, it's just ingrained, from the start in a cook we lived and died by the clock, not just to get ready for service, but during service, if you wait 20 minutes for your. Stake, it's pretty miserable, right? Yeah. So was always a factor and we held each other to that it was a common enemy, and we could circle the wagons around that. I think our professional pride just, we were able to humble ourselves with each other knowing that I want my potatoes to be better. If you can help me make them better, I want that. And I wish you saw more of that in the corporate side. But what it taught me is that just because someone has authority, like they're a vice president in a company or a director, doesn't mean they're a leader. Leadership is different from authority, and you can find leadership at every level in a company. I totally agree. And so my peer that was telling me to make my potatoes better, absolutely leading that team to be better.

Michelle Kraemer:

But was he also helping you make them better or just telling you? I'm curious about that because I think

Philip Wang:

so it

Michelle Kraemer:

depends the how. Yeah. Because there's the Yeah. If you're consciously incompetent, you don't know how to do it, and you're under a deadline, that's a pretty tough situation to begin.

Philip Wang:

I think there's two scenarios there's, you make this so much better than me, show me what you do. Yes. Yeah. And that That is rare. It's rare but there's also the yeah. Uhuh. That's not good enough. And they walk away, cause they know can do better. Uhhuh, they know you already know to make it better. They're holding you accountable to it. And I remember like yesterday, there's, one of Traci's at Rubicon first restaurant. One of her signature dishes was a seared scallop on a truffled potato puree with a little truffle butter sauce. Simple in presentation. One of I've ever made. And it's based solely on the potatoes. That's the star of the dish. And it's a dish that Joël Robuchon made famous, his potato puree. This is one of the most decorated Michelin starred chefs in the world. He made his name with potato puree, mashed potatoes, and the whole process, they're like half butter, they're unbelievable. And we worked for months trying to perfect them just to get them better.

Peter Wang:

How did they teach you? How was there here's lemme show you how it's done. Yeah. And then you do it. What was the process like? I'm trying to picture the kitchen

Philip Wang:

Unfortunately in kitchens, there isn't someone there standing by you saying, let me show you how to do this. That's a rarity. It's, here's what you're making, make it right. And then you're like, oh my God, what am I gonna do? Like you're talking to people around you like, okay, here's how I do it. Let's, get it on, do this, do that, walk you through the steps. And then slowly it's trial and error, right? I made these potatoes, I'm gonna say a thousand times at least. And perfected them right to the point where. We're going up to service. I'm setting my station at five o'clock. I know every person, that restaurant is gonna come and taste those potatoes and tell me if they're as good as they were yesterday. That's the wait staff. That's the bartender. That's the dishwasher, that's everybody. And going back to, leadership can be anywhere. Like the dishwasher would call me out as often as the chef, right? Yeah. Everybody held the standards and you'd watch this motley crew on the street, you would, you'd cross the street to be away from them. But their element, there, they're. they're world class. I wish there was more of that. And in the corporate setting, I do believe there is time and resources to do it right. I. I struggle with the fact that it doesn't happen, not just in our kitchens, but across the company. Again, just like leadership and authority are separate, I don't necessarily believe skill allows you to rise to the top all the time, either in the corporate setting, right?

Peter Wang:

Which is, it's a subset.

Michelle Kraemer:

What I'm hearing is two interesting lessons. One is that there's a lot of organizations outside of restaurants that aspire to we are the three Michelin star restaurant of corporations. I've actually heard those words before. What I'm hearing is that you can't have that from day one with all of the people in your proverbial kitchen that you have to have a place where trial and error, like if you're just letting people go through the revolving door really quickly, without that, you're not gonna get to the kind of success that you want because you're gonna run out of, just run out of people. Maybe. Maybe there's a million people that wanna. Work in that restaurant, then you won't run out. But I'm not sure it's the most efficient. And then the other thing is that there's just this sense of really wanting to impart your wisdom to other people around you. And that great leaders are able to determine like when you actually know the answer versus maybe you don't know the answer and maybe you don't have enough time to, show you how that truffle butter is made. Maybe you whisper to the person around at the next station to say okay, can you maybe spend more time?'cause I'm off to Food Network or whatever. I think that there's a really interesting piece of leadership wisdom in there about Just being very mindful that. Expecting that perfect thing the first go around is probably not. Realistic.

Philip Wang:

I agree. I agree. I think it's a process, right? It's an infinite game, it's not about today, about it's about the journey and tomorrow and the day after and the day after that.

Peter Wang:

I'm curious of when you had your own restaurants, how did you run it?

Philip Wang:

There's some moments I'm proud of and some moments I'm not. Like all of us, a of my environment. I came up in kitchens where lots of screaming, lots of yelling, you had Solid people around you, the pressures the time constraints, all of these things, you're always trying to push to do more. If something wasn't good, it's still five o'clock to get set up for dinner. If you gotta make it again, now you gotta do it over, right? That stress, emotions come out and the stereotype of the screaming chef is real, right?'cause it happened. Now over time I think I've become a better manager. There's a lot of those, those I don't know, qualities or techniques that, that I've dropped consciously, I don't want to yell at anybody. I don't want to be yelled at, right? I want people to be treated nice, I want them to be at work enjoying what they're doing. For me, again, it's the chefs I worked for were the most skilled in the world at their craft, some of the least skilled interpersonal relations, right? And when I mentioned earlier that, that, rising in a corporation may not always rely on your skill. How you work with people, how you engage them, how you inspire them, how you give them context. All of these things are just as important, if not more important to get that buy-in. It was a tough lesson, right? And there are many times that I failed. I failed myself, I failed my team, I failed my business because I resorted to these kind of lesser skills, and in many times made the situation worse but that's what I knew. And. Until I was able to see, boy, that wasn't helpful. And now I've put myself in a worse position. Whether it be with my team, with my business, my guests. It's not as charming as it might be on television, watching a chef yell at somebody.

Michelle Kraemer:

I'm sure not. Yeah.

Peter Wang:

It's not

Michelle Kraemer:

not charming on tv, is it? It's not, I would argue it's not charming on TV either, but Yeah. We're here talking about becoming bolder and wiser. And it's really interesting to hear you say that you were thinking about being nicer and creating an environment that people wanted to be in and, not yelling, because sometimes that's the bolder move, right? Is to authentically lead in a way that is unexpected given all the people who came before you and certainly wiser.

Philip Wang:

Bolder and wiser. Yeah. I'd like to think I'm both. Compared to where I was, probably nowhere near where I need to be. I think, as I've evolved my leadership style and really actively worked on it. It's come down to: it's not just the skill it's how you make people feel. And when people are engaged and they want to push the envelope and be bolder. As a leader you want to give them that, that opportunity and so The freedom to fail is a big one. I think a lot of people are scared to make a wrong move because, oh my God, how's this gonna affect my rating? Or, something like

Peter Wang:

that. It's such a high pressure environment. Yeah. Does it mean like, when I fail, it means the customer has to wait another 20 minutes? What, how does that taken up?

Philip Wang:

Yes. that's the end result, but whether it be restaurants or any business or any really interaction in life for me, mistakes are gonna happen. So could berate the person for a mistake that I myself have been guilty of numerous times, probably in my career. Really to me, what matters at this point is how do you respond to a mistake, right? Not just with your crew or your team or your business, but with your guests, mistakes. Ma you wait 30 minutes for your food. It's not the 30 minutes. It's whether you're acknowledged, whether people, come over and whether it's apologize or try to make it right. You walk away feeling better about it. You're more forgiving and the same thing I think when you build that trust over time with your team. With the people you're working with you're going to get better results you might make a mistake in a moment, right? And yes. Whether it's a Michelin starred kitchen or Meta, Every little mistake will some degree impact your business. But over the long term, if you are able to take those and turn them around, turn the situation around for your guests, for your team, it's going to get you further eventually in the long run.

Peter Wang:

I want to ask about the business of restaurant Sure. Restaurant is a tough business to be in. Yes. When you were working in the restaurant that's not yours, how much the business side of things was shared? Was there a goal, like in a corporate? Yeah. Hey guys, here's our revenue goal. Hey guys, how many tables, how many turnovers? And so on and so forth. Like, how is that being conveyed to the rest of the kitchen? Zero. Zero.

Philip Wang:

I feel like that's a disservice. But again, there's not a lot of time, every restaurant look you have a handful of restaurants that are at the top. The world renowned places that are making money and the chef has his own cookware line and all of these things. but most restaurants in the US for sure, and around the world, are on razor thin margins. 5% net, The top one's different, right? They can charge what they want and people are gonna come because, they're the artists, it's The Taylor Swift of the kitchen

Peter Wang:

the Sue's

Philip Wang:

kitchen, plenty of people playing in the dive bar with their guitar. There's a lot more of them than there are Taylor Swift, right? and the same thing in restaurants. The top can do what they want and command the price.

Peter Wang:

Even the top restaurants, what kind margin are they can they expect roughly?

Philip Wang:

One of the restaurants I worked at in, in was one of the top grossing restaurants in the country, and we had probably a 15% to the net. When we saw a P&L and we saw that number, we were literally jumping up and down for joy. In a lot of businesses, 15%, like people wouldn't even wanna touch it, Yeah, sure. Most restaurants are on such a razor thin margin, paying one cook an hour to sit and learn. The budget the money's not there. Right. Sense makes sense. chances are that person's not gonna be around to give you return. They're gonna be somewhere else working.

Peter Wang:

So

Philip Wang:

really

Peter Wang:

it's interesting because the margin of the business is driving a lot of decisions around how you train, how quickly you turn over Yes. And so on, so forth.

Philip Wang:

And because of that, it's, the stress and, even the able to have the culture, right? Not being able to have extra people on the crew. One person, you one person that does that job, right. they're sick, first of all, the culture is you don't call in sick. right? You're dead. That was it. Yeah. That's what we grew up in the restaurant's thinking, you're sick as a dog, you're in the restaurant,

Michelle Kraemer:

Just what you want in your restaurant, no.

Philip Wang:

it. No, absolutely. Behind the curtain is it's, there's a lot of unfortunate circumstances Yeah. Because of that margin, actually Uhhuh. And if that person wasn't there, they are dead or in the hospital, then everybody else has to pull up that work Right. there. There's no one else to fill in. And it's not the healthiest environment to be in. You have a lot of creative outlet. You have a lot of following your passion and the joy of putting out the perfect plate, the sauce falls perfectly on the scallop and the potatoes are the right consistency to give you that perfect swirl, is, it's like chasing the dragon, right? It's like a drug. But the flip side of that is, is because you can't hire extra people. If you're the chef, you're there open to close, plenty of days where I walked out of there at one in the morning and was back at six,

Peter Wang:

so when you opened your first restaurant, what was your expectation?

Philip Wang:

My expectation was that this is gonna be another restaurant. Uh, hope was that wow, this can really be something. Yeah. we'll make some money, can put something to retirement. I was. A bit jaded at that point. When I owned my first restaurant, I was 20 years into the industry, 15 years in. I knew enough about it to be realistic about it. Right.

Michelle Kraemer:

that

Philip Wang:

French Blue up in St. Helena in Napa Valley. Yeah. That was the first one. I was a partner. I was partner. And And what year

Michelle Kraemer:

was

Philip Wang:

that? That was 2011. Okay. Yeah. And

Michelle Kraemer:

right around when we met. Yeah. Yeah. You were opening your

Philip Wang:

restaurant. Yeah. And And it was fantastic, right? All the joys that come along with it, owning a business, being responsible, but then you're responsible. We had two and a half million dollars of investor money that kept me up at night thinking, how are we gonna pay this back? We had staff of probably 60 people across the different shifts that. If I made a mistake, they're not feeding their family. And that burden is always there with any business in the restaurant business because of how fickle customers can be, how thin the margins are. One mistake, 5%, that's not a lot of buffer. So one mistake and it can all go wrong.

Peter Wang:

Because you've seen so many restaurants by the time, 20 years in, so you see the numbers. You understand the skills, and you raise$2.5 million to do the restaurant. Did you have a vision say, I'm gonna do this differently?

Philip Wang:

Absolutely. I had my own point of view on cooking. I had my own point of view on how we should present food to people, service, all of that. I also had partners who had their own vision and their own point of view. Are they business people, folks, or they were one part I two, one was the builder and architect of the restaurant, and one was the front of the house. Mm-Hmm. I was most certainly a minority partner. But the three of us put it together. We had some other core, people that worked with us that, that came along. But yeah. The three of us drove it and it was successful until it wasn't right. One of the partners had some personal issues that ended up affecting the business. And And it was heartbreaking. Because, I feel like we were just starting to find our footing. We had a couple other deals that were on the table to open a couple more that someone wanted to invest in. To really, put the pedal to the metal and and then all of a sudden we're blindsided, right? And we had to sell the business as a result. And now I'm back at square one.

Peter Wang:

The philosophies that you went into building that business, did you realize some of those or,

Philip Wang:

yeah, I did. I have a very personal point of view on food. My cooking has, is been influenced for the most part by two main schools of thought, I started in with Traci in California, which Which was ingredient forward, right? It's about the raw materials. Everything has grown right around us. And don't mess it up, right? Let it shine on its own. A beautiful peach. It doesn't need much. Some olive oil and salt and there you go. Now it's, now you've highlighted it. The other side is New York, where things are as manipulated as can possibly be at the time. At the time, foams this is before molecular. Yeah, But also before the farm to table move, hit this country. And so every box was said, grown in California, that we would get. Farmers' markets weren't necessarily a big thing yet. Because everything's coming from California or they're shipping fish from, france whatever they're doing, the products aren't at their best'cause they've had three days shipping here and the fish is a of shipping there. So you have to manipulate it a bit more to bring it out. And so it's. A more kind of theory behind the concept of the dish. And so for me, I've put those two together in a way that I think really lets the ingredients shine but instead of, here's a roasted artichoke with a simple vinegarette, which can be delicious but there's not a lot of depth there. It's, here's an artichoke that's, been marinated, and then we, infuse it, then we grill it, right? And so it still looks very simple, but you've done a bit more without taking away its character or its kind of sense of self. And the sauce is maybe a little more than a vinegarette, if it's appropriate, sure. Something simple. But, I can really build depth of flavor and build things a bit deeper, that, that will highlight it without covering it up. And taking the best of both worlds is what my cooking is.

Peter Wang:

Did you carry that to the second restaurant too?

Philip Wang:

I did.

Peter Wang:

Is it the Hawaii one?

Philip Wang:

Yeah. I think my techniques are still the same. right? Mm-Hmm. What has changed is my cooking has gotten more rustic in appearance and presentation wise, here's the steak, it's grilled. Like, I'm not gonna cut it into a perfect cube. As I've gotten older things that were important when I was younger that seemed important have fallen away to the things that really are. And I've Gotten to more of a focus on what are the important things in my life. And I think with cooking too, right? That steak doesn't have to be a perfect cube. Or that, if that piece of carrot's not, literally measured with a ruler next to the other one, like it's

Peter Wang:

that's interesting how McDonald wants to stay in Perfect. Fries. Like the same length. Yeah. Yeah. And I was like,

Michelle Kraemer:

that's

Peter Wang:

so fake.

Michelle Kraemer:

same length. Same. Right.

Philip Wang:

Yeah.

Peter Wang:

Social, like perfection. Yeah. And actually I think people are becoming more, I don't know, it's my own take suspicious. Yeah. When the fruits look exactly the same.

Michelle Kraemer:

There's this sort of across disciplines. Yeah. I think a push towards authenticity and acknowledgement that we're not, nobody's perfect and nothing is perfect. A chip nail polish was apparently in,

Peter Wang:

I don't

Michelle Kraemer:

wear nail polish, but for a while I was like, chip nail polish.

Peter Wang:

Let's start swing this way

Michelle Kraemer:

now. But yeah, there's, I think there's a lesson there on for folks thinking about how you lead. And I guess that leads me to my last question for you, which is, how do you wanna be remembered? You talked a little bit about your philosophy as a chef. Sure. How do you wanna be remembered as a cook and as a leader?

Philip Wang:

I'm not really interested in how people remember what I've made, or the dish or the signature item that might've been on a menu. I I want to be remembered for the way people felt. The way I've maybe helped somebody come along in their career certainly if I've helped someone in personal life, for me, those relationships are probably the most important thing at this point. Part of my journey, Hopefully towards wisdom, and still going there, is the fact that what's on that plate isn't everything right? And when I was a cook coming up, it was everything, I was only as good as the last plate I put out. And that may be true in the terms of the product but really it's the the impression you make on people. And really it's the means by which you do that. And it's not the end in itself. So yeah it's. It's that kind of, that that I've heard it called an infinite mindset that I try have and whether I'm successful or not. Is that, I want what I do to continue and if someone I've worked with continues to lead somebody else and help them then then I'm happy.

Peter Wang:

The way you make people feel is gonna propagate itself forward. The dish that you made perfectly Yeah. Is gonna perish in the next 20 minutes. it's

Philip Wang:

like It's ephemeral.

Peter Wang:

ephemeral. Thank you so much for

Philip Wang:

home with us.

Michelle Kraemer:

Thank you Philip. So much wisdom here and yeah. It's been such a pleasure.

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